Some Greensboro council members who voted to remove Mitchell Johnson as the city manager would like to distance the decision from the city's four-year-old police controversy and bring closure, but a closed-session discussion on March 3 suggests a number of factors -- a Justice Department probe, multiple unresolved lawsuites and polarized public opinion about the validity of concerns about racial discrimination within the police department -- make it unlikely that the city will now be able to "move on."
Partial transcript:
[4:30]
City Attorney Terry Wood: “I’ll say this the way I think it: We’ve got these lawsuits out there. You are going to need [Mitchell Johnson’s] assistance, no matter which way it goes. You’ve going to his assistance.”
A-large Councilwoman Mary Rakestraw: “In what manner?”
Wood: “Simple answer is he is going to have to give witness, he is going to have to give depositions, he is going to have to give testimony probably…. Above and beyond that, he’s a defendant in one of these lawsuits. And he is working with the city’s lawyers. He is going to have to meet with them, counsel with them, tell ’em who the witnesses are, tell ’em what he believes the facts to be, whether you agree with them or not. He’s got to do those things. So, in my opinion, it’s important to have him available to also do that, aside from whatever duties he’s assigned.
“For instance, the comment was made tonight that we want to release all the information. Well, that’s fine. We’ll work toward that end. But in order to do that we need his assistance and availability also. There’s a lot of things that he can do to help the city down the road.”
[6:30]
District 1 Councilwoman Dianne Bellamy-Small: “My question is, why are we trying to fire the city manager? When this came up a year ago, and I asked people to state in writing or verbally what their issues were with the city manager, folks begged off: ‘Oh no, we don’t want that to be public record. We don’t want that to be out there.’ This man has worked his behind off to try to meet all the needs that we have tried to put him through.
“I think it’s unfair that all of us were not part of the discussion. This is supposed to be a council of nine. There are, particularly when it comes to something – we all are supposed to be Mitch’s boss, not five of us, not four of us. All of us. People have gone and made decisions that he needs to be fired. And some of us have not been included in that. And I want before we leave out of here for somebody to state: One, two, three, four – even if it’s down to a hundred – what are the reasons that we’re doing this? What’s the urgency? This man has not broken any laws. He has not done anything that shows that he has misused his powers, or anything. So I want an answer to that question.”
District 2 Councilwoman Goldie Wells: “I’d like an answer to the same question.”
District 3 Councilman Zack Matheny: “If you don’t mind, I might have to step outside and get a sheet of paper that I’ve listed, Dianne. I’d be happy to do that. This came from a very slow, cautious, analytical thought process that I’ve been going through. And I know – I don’t want to speak for Sandra. I want to let her speak for herself. Looking at this situation as a whole for a long time…. I made a T-chart out and I’ve done everything that I can to figure out what we need to do to move this city forward. This was not an easy conversation for me to have with Mitch, or to have with anybody else.
“When I’m looking at trying to figure out what we’ve got to do to move this council forward – and I don’t believe, quite frankly – I’m not looking at it as we can be nine people holding hands and singing ‘Kumbaya’ and working together, because that’s not going to happen. And it’s probably not going to happen with the next council. And that’s just reality.
“So I take the David Wray situation, the trials, in my case, what I came to this decision – moving Greensboro forward, looking at the situation – what do we have, where are we, and what do we have to do to move forward? And if I am the chairman or part of a board that is running a company that has 2,800 employees with a budget of $450 million, what do I need to do? And that’s where we’re at. We’ve got a CEO that, quite frankly, unfortunately, inherited some bad stuff probably four years ago. And this city has been in a quagmire ever since. We as a board are not moving forward and, unfortunately, we’re not going to move forward with what we’ve got right now. And I sat with Mitch and looked him in the eye, and that’s exactly what I told him. Unfortunately, in the case of trying to get us going and move this city forward, and everybody wants to move this city forward, whether we’re talking about 1979, or we’re talking about racial issues with the police department, or whether we’re talking about the city manager, basically where we are today, we cannot move forward. And it’s affecting this thing; it’s taking a life of its own.
“And it has affected Mitch. When Terry says, ‘He’s come to peace with it,’ quite honestly he wakes up every day as the manager and says, ‘What’s going to happen today?’
“And I’m taking it from another step. When interviewing our current employees, their leader at a department head meeting said, ‘What kind of job do you think I’ve done?’ And they said, ‘Well, you know, last three months you’ve improved.’ And he has. I’ll be the first one to tell you. He has. He’s done a much better job of communication, a much better job of communicating the budget. But then he made another comment. And his comment was, ‘Do you think this city would be better off if I wasn’t here?’ And I had a few department heads come up to me and say, ‘You know what, this city would be better off he wasn’t here. We’re distracted. We can’t move forward. We’ve got 2,800 people, and a large percentage of us are just paralyzed, polarized because we can’t move forward because it’s hanging over our head.’
“Has he been perfect? No. Has he done a good job? I could probably argue that he probably has done a pretty good job. Has he made some mistakes? [inaudible] That he’s made some mistakes. When looking at trying to move this city forward, we’ve got to have new leadership. I would prefer to have it outside of North Carolina, definitely outside of Greensboro. In my case, I made my T-chart – I’ll show it to you. It’s a little bit over here, but most of it over here was, he’s done better the last couple months. He’s a good man. He’s a good family man. Part of me worries about what he’s going to go through mentally for the next few months, his family and what he’s been through. But over here is, yeah he’s improved in the last three months, but what are they telling me about the last three and a half years? And the list that I’ve got – again, I’ll be happy to go show it to you – it’s too long.”
Bellamy-Small: “But you’re not telling me, what did he do? Because first of all, you haven’t been here three and a half years. Those of us who were here initially were the ones who put Mitch in the job. And I will tell you very honestly, I was not one of the people who voted for Mitch, initially. But given the circumstances that we were in at the time we needed somebody who understood – kind of what Terry is alluding to – we needed someone who understood what we were going through, and had the history with us about what had happened as far as the whole police matter and some other things.
“To say he hasn’t moved the city forward, we have given this man almost a thousand different directions to go in. And he’s tried to accommodate those – at one council meeting we’ll tell him to stand up and the next council meeting we’ll tell him to sit down. He’s tried to jump up and down and do these things. So if his leadership has been shaky it’s been not because of him; it’s because of him trying to follow our directives.”
Matheny: “Dianne, I don’t disagree with you on that.”
Wells: “Well, you know….”
Matheny: “I don’t think he’s been effective. I don’t think we’ve been all that effective.”
Wells: “Well, you know the thing that we’ve been talking about and the thing that individuals have said on the council is that it’s our responsibility to manage the manager, tell the manager what to do. If he hasn’t done what we wanted him to do, it’s because we’ve been jerking him around. How do you feel if nobody ever compliments you on anything [inaudible]. It’s been a cloud ever since. We had that cloud with Wray. That cloud is what has caused us to have the cloud now. The Wray cloud has clouded on, and people, you know you had that idea all the time that Mitch was not doing a good job. Anybody who’s juggled and been able to keep their head above the water the way we have acted needs an award, because we have not been a good council. We don’t get along with each other. We have our opinions, we stick to what we believe in, and we have not done a thing for Greensboro that’s been positive.
“And we can’t put it on the manager. Whenever the operation goes bad, it’s the leaders of the operation. He’s the one who’s supposed to manage the city, but we give him the directions. So if he hasn’t done what’s right it’s because we haven’t given him the direction. Nobody can actually say what he has done. Everybody has all these things in their head. Now I just think that we will make ourselves look – I got my little list too. We’ve got the stimulus package. And then a few months ago we just re-hired – we got the budget process going on. We’ve got the employees’ survey. And Zack is saying what somebody told him, but why don’t we wait and get the employee survey to see how they feel about him? We instituted that and have to wait and see what’s coming.
“We have these vacancies. We don’t have anybody over the fire department. We don’t have anybody over the parks and rec. We need to have somebody in the economic development; we need to have an assistant manager there. We have an opening in the transportation. And look at the staff morale and the productivity.
“We will make ourselves, I would think, almost a laughingstock.”
Matheny: “Goldie, I can understand what you’re saying. And you could say that the lack of staffing is lack of management.”
Wells: “And that’s us. Because [cross talk] ….
Matheny: “You could also argue, one could also argue that the lack of filling those voids, not having bodies replacing the lineup, not having the fire chief, not having could be…..
Wells: “…Could be. But I tell you another thing: When people are not secure – now here’s what we talking about the arrangement – when you go to work but you don’t have the authority to make any real decisions. If he’s going to work on the budget, but then he sees something different in the budget and here’s some new person who’s interim, says, ‘Oh no, it’s not that way,’ and him having the experience and knowing what would be the best, but he doesn’t have the authority. That’s muzzling the office [inaudible]. That’s wrong. That’s wrong.”
Bellamy-Small: “Mr. Matheny, you’ve got to remember that when you talk about him not filling those positions, he has been given over the past year: ‘Freeze positions. Unfreeze positions. Only do it if it’s necessary.’ Then we turn around and tell him: ‘Expedite getting the city attorney here. Make sure you get rid of the other city attorney very quickly, as opposed to what has been the norm here, which is that someone may retire, but then stay on board here for six months as a consultant – whatever. The inconsistency of what we have said as far as how he’s to do his job has just been tremendous. But I go back to my original question: Saying that he’s not moving the city forward; it’s not him. We are the policymakers. We are the ones that have not moved the city forward. Every time that man tries to make a move he’s got to call nine of us, sometimes two and three times a day in order to move forward. And how can you move forward if you’re spending half of your day trying to think about, ‘Is this something I need to call every council member about before I move forward if I want to hire someone?’
“We told him that he did not have the capacity to hire a city attorney. And how did we tell him that? We said we wanted to interview the people who were being considered. And we messed it up, because those folks left because of the way we treated them in those interviews.”
Matheny: “Actually, I don’t think we messed it up, because I think we got the best [cross-talk]….”
Bellamy-Small: “I’m not talking about whether we got Terry or not. No [cross-talk]…, What I’m saying is that if you got any feedback from the two people who were here, their withdrawed. And Terry, I don’t mean this the way it’s going to sound. It wasn’t that we initially planned to hire Terry; you know that. You know that. You know. So I ask the question….”
Matheny: “But you could also say, Dianne, one of the final applicants you knew, or someone in your family knew, you knew or somebody knew and that was not disclosed to us. And that probably should have been disclosed by the manager. I could argue, and I think I probably would have [inaudible] to say, ‘That probably wasn’t appropriate.’”
Bellamy-Small: “What?”
Matheny: “I was in the interview with you, and you said, ‘You know such and such, such and such.’ And you all had an engagement, and you had a conversation about who you knew with that applicant. And I’m not coming at you, but if you’re….”
Bellamy-Small: “Okay, well, if we’re going to go down that road. Inappropriate things were asked by other people too, and we were told to stay with the questions. So don’t put that monkey on my back.”
Matheny: “I’m not putting it on your back, but if you bring it up….”
Bellamy-Small: “Okay, don’t put that monkey on my back. [cross-talk with raised voices and shouting]
Mayor Yvonne Johnson: “We’re going to hear everybody. And Sandra was next. And I’ll come to you. We’re going to hear everybody because, whether we agree or not, we are supposed to be here to care about these citizens in Greensboro. Everybody’s going to have their say. Go.”
Mayor Pro Tem Sandra Anderson Groat: “Well, I would just like to say how I arrived at this decision. I spent with Mitch last year – I had a 10 o’clock standing – 10:30 standing appointment. I usually stayed until 11:30 or 12 o’clock. We’ve probably missed five or six times meeting together. Keith Holliday told me I should do that if I wanted to keep up with what’s going on and what’s happening. You spend time with somebody like that, you know, you talk about your families, you talk about whatever conversations as well as the city. I feel really close to him, and I really like him as a person. I really do.
“I think he’s gotten a raw deal. I think he inherited some stuff. We have nine people and a manager. We have the most dysfunctional situation going on I believe I have ever seen. In my reasoning we’re really not accomplishing anything because we can’t even talk to each other. We can’t have open minds. I’m amazed we can [inaudible] like this. During the Christmas holidays I really started thinking about this. It started weighing on my mind. And I thought about it, and thought that I could not take that step. And finally, I asked myself – I mean, I said to myself: ‘I’ve either got to unconditionally accept this manager and the job he’s doing, and drop it completely. I have to have full trust in him, or I have to take a stand because that’s what it requires of us. It requires of us to either completely support him, or take a stand that if you believe otherwise.
“I agonized over it. Charlie Melvin is my mentor and my friend. And I’m telling you, I have worn him out about this. I didn’t want to in any way be unfair. I didn’t want to financially hurt Mitch in any way. But we’ve got nine people – we’ve got ten people, and nine of them can’t move until November. And we’ve got a bad dynamic going on. And quite frankly, I will say that exactly this that’s going on is exactly what I’m talking about. Mitch has become a lightning rod with us. And almost any subject that comes up he is going to be in the middle of it. That’s not fair. Why should he have to worry every day if he’s going to have five votes to keep him? I would never want to do that if I were him. I just concluded in my heart that really and truly, and if it costs me the election or whatever, I just really believe that it’s the right thing. And I think doing what you believe in your heart is right is a longer standing thing than losing an election or having people mad at you. And I feel really sad about it, I really do [choking up]….”
Bellamy-Small: “Madame Mayor, I really think….”
Groat: “I really think it’s right. I’m sorry. I’m finished. I can’t do it right now.”
Bellamy-Small: “But Madame Mayor, I really want my question answered at some point in time, because we need to look at this from a personnel issue. The man’s performance: what has he done?”
Yvonne Johnson: “To Trudy. And then anybody else that wants to speak. And then we’re going to come to your question.”
Bellamy-Small: “Alright.”
Yvonne Johnson: “Whoever wants to continue to answer this, fine.”
District 5 Councilwoman Trudy Wade: “I just want to bring Mitch in and let’s hear from Mitch and his attorneys. I think the majority of us have already made a decision.”
Yvonne Johnson: “And I think so too, but I want people to have an opportunity….”
Wade: “I don’t have anything else to say, and I think that anything that I say, or Mary says, or Mike says is going to be a lightning rod, and we don’t feel that we can make any statements really.”
Yvonne Johnson: “You can….”
At-large Councilwoman Mary Rakestraw: “I have a question: Madame Mayor, I know – and you’re the queen of facilitators, I give you kudos for that. But I know that anything, because of the remarks that have already been made from members of the council – some members, not all – about us being the three former county commissioners, and they don’t like our attitude. And I haven’t been a commissioner for awhile in years, and I haven’t had an attitude. I’ll tell you one thing: I just see personnel issues differently, obviously, than members of the city council. That’s all I’m going to say, because, like I said, I’ve just had people come up and spit out, regurgitate the exact same things that have been spoken to me by city council people. They’ve told people how they feel, and so these people will come back and say the very same thing. And I say, ‘I know where you got that.’ And they blush and walk away.
“It is a personnel issue. And I will say this about Mitch: Mitch called me one time, and he said, ‘Mary, I know you don’t agree with the way I’m running the city.’ And I said, ‘That’s right.’ He said, ‘I want to thank you for being polite to me, always taking my calls and listening to everything I have to say, and asking questions. And I appreciate that, because you’ve never really tried to embarrass me.’ I said, ‘Mitch, you may be a great family man. You probably are a great father, neighbor, husband, but I just don’t see you as our city manager.’ And that’s the end.”
[30:15]
At-large Councilman Robbie Perkins: "I do think there is one major, major issue that, Zack, I don't know it it's on your decision tree, but I think this council needs to explore with our attorney prior to making this final decision. And we may not have even been briefed by our attorney on this Department of Justice issue. The DOJ is coming in here, and is going to investigate our police department.
"In thinking through the various positions that various folks are taking -- Zack has talked about running a corporation and making decisions in the best interest of the corporation -- I think in this case we need to look at the liability portion of this deal: That we have a manager that basically made a decision to stand up and listen to some African-American police officers' complaints about the police situation. No matter what you believe about Wray and whatever else, over the last three or four years this thing has escalated and been kept around -- and Bledsoe and all his stuff.
"And we've got a situation today where we've got a new president. And we've got a very aggressive attorney general of the United States of America. And that person is very interested in what happened in Greensboro, North Carolina over the last four years. And what type of exposure -- and I want Terry Wood to answer this question -- what type of exposure do we have as a city, as a police department to a DOJ investigation? And is that exposure enhanced or increased by us removing the person that voluntarily opened that investigation up [inaudible]? And my concern is that we have quite a bit of exposure. That that exposure is measured from a credibility standpoint of our community in terms of how we'll be perceived statewide and nationally, as well as dollar-wise. And I'd just like somebody to do that. Because we haven't had our briefing on this DOJ thing. And I don't know a whole lot about it. I've heard...."
Yvonne Johnson: "To be legal, let's wait and do that in the second, because we talked about coming in here...."
Wood: "...For one purpose."
Perkins: "But this is a critical part...."
Yvonne Johnson: "I understand, but can you just save it, because I don't want us to be illegal. You tell me if that's illegal for you to answer that now?"
Wood: "I can answer this part of the question. I can't get into the Justice Department investigation."
Yvonne Johnson: "Okay."
Wood: "Your specific request was Mitch's part in that. And that was part of my original discussion when I mentioned keeping him on as a city employee, is that his part in that would be very crucial. And has been. We're trying now to fulfill the Justice Department request, and he's been helpful in saying, 'Well, you need this, you need that, you need to go here.' As well as our PD and some other things. So when you say he is a critical part of that and might somehow affect that, I can only answer that it well could. Now, I don't want to get over into the investigation itself. I can do that, but we didn't come in here for that purpose, and we didn't state that."
Perkins: "My specific concern is that our increased liability could put the city at jeopardy at some point in time in the future, based on its actions in this regard. I think that it sets us up pretty good for some fairly serious exposure by DOJ."
Wells: “Could we reach some kind of compromise, so that we could let Mitch keep his job until we out of here? See, because we’re going to look bad.”
Rakestraw: “You don’t think we already do?”
Wells: “We going to look worse.”
Rakestraw: “I don’t think so.”
Wells: “We will look worse. We’ll look worse. We’ll look worse. Because the people are still talking about 1979. They still know we messed up on that. And it will come up again. And we’re trying to get out of that image. And you heard people talking tonight. You heard ’em.”
Rakestraw: “Yeah, and I heard what they called me too [inaudible]. Au contraire. They don’t have to come up here….”
Wells: “One or two every time….”
Rakestraw: “They don’t have to – they don’t have to come here. Because if two came up here, you would have said, ‘That’s only two.’ You would have argued that. So see, you want to have it both ways. And you can’t, Goldie. And people don’t want to because they just don’t want to. They don’t have to. They call me, and I’m sorry they don’t call you and tell you that. But they call me.”
Wells: “People I meet – whites, blacks, all of ’em….”
Rakestraw: “I’m telling you, whites, blacks tell me au contraire to what you’re saying.”
Yvonne Johnson: “Dianne.”
Bellamy-Small: “Okay, I still want the other question answered, but Terry: First of December we looked at his evaluation. Or we tried to. And give him some feedback. Under personnel laws, do we have any obligation – it’s not like he’s on probation and then after six months we can just fire him. Don’t we have some obligation to tell this man the conditions of his firing, or do we have the right to fire him just ’cause?”
Wood: “Let us go back. You certainly may do that. His contract says that he will serve, in effect, at your pleasure until you decide to terminate him as city manager.”
Bellamy-Small: “So we don’t have to give him any….”
Wood: “Well, he was not evaluated, I don’t think. I may be….”
Groat: “Yes, he was.”
Wood: “He was? So at that point if he had deficiencies he should have been informed of them.”
Wells: “That’s right.”
Wood: “Having said that, you’re under no legal obligation to do it. Let me put it that way. He serves at your pleasure.”
Wells: “We gonna have to tell people something. They always come out and say it was a family reason or something like that, but you know the folk know exactly what happened.”
Wood: “I wouldn’t want to – well, I’ve probably said too much. You [hesitating] don’t want to create another personnel issue. And you don’t want to be out there – what’s the word I want to use? – you don’t want to be out there making harmful statements about him or his family or anything else. You’re vote is going to just about say it all.”
Wells: “I just think there should be some negotiating, some compromising, some real reasons….”
[40:36]
Yvonne Johnson: “I think he’s given great service to the city. He may have – some people see that he may have believed that he may not have done some things well or bungled some things, I don’t know. There’s differences of opinion about that. But I also know that I have to be able to live with myself. If we’re going to remove him, then give him something to do where this man can get his retirement and take care of his family.”
[45:09]
Bellamy-Small: “I still want us to put on the record what the man has done wrong, what has got us to this point, because just saying you want to see the city move forward, particularly since all of us we’re not part of the discussion of any of this, you know, it’s not fair to this man. And I want an answer: What has he done?”
Yvonne Johnson: “Anybody want to answer that?”
Wade: “No. Can we go around the room and see if we agree to [the terms of Mitchell Johnson’s termination]?”
Wells: “No, we want an answer to our question. You don’t just get rid of a person, and you can’t even give one reason?”
Yvonne Johnson: “Zack has given some reasons.” [cross-talk]
Matheny: “For the love of God! Please. Before we vote, I would love for Mitch to come down and….”
Wood: “I was going to say – it’s your show, but….”
Yvonne Johnson: “It may have not been a good enough reason, and it may have not been one you agree with, but he did try to give you some reasons.”
Wells: “Well, I haven’t heard them.”
Matheny: “Okay, well Goldie, you don’t listen to me….”
Wells: “I’m going to listen again.”
Matheny: “I think when Mitch and I discussed it today, I laid out everything. And I’m not going to sit here in a taped session and say everything the man did was wrong. Because honestly I think he deserves a lot better than how he’s been treated for the last four years in a lot of cases. I think he deserves a right – Goldie, you know what? Sometimes I despise the way you treat people. And the way you’re treating me right now is absurd.”
Wells: “Well, I will apologize….”
Matheny: “I think Mitch deserves the right – I’m talking….”
Wells: “This is somebody’s life.”
Matheny: “Before we vote, I don’t know how anybody else feels, but you know, I….”
Rakestraw: “Is he making a statement or what?”
Matheny: “I have no idea.” [cross-talk]…
[47:15]
Groat: “On Friday, he and I tried to catch up with each other, and couldn’t. And so on Friday Mitch was in Cary, and he came back. And I had someone check with him and see if I could catch him in the afternoon. I talked to him from four o’clock to six o’clock. And I’ll tell you something that kind of made me know for sure is – we talked about a lot of things – I want you to know, nobody persuaded me and I didn’t persuade anybody else.
“We just talked about a lot of different things. And I said, ‘You know, the way I see it, here are the options.’ He said, ‘Do you have five votes?’ I said, ‘I have no idea; I don’t know.’ And he said, ‘Tell me what I did wrong; tell me what you could prove that I did wrong?’ And I’m not going to get into cutting somebody down unnecessarily; there’s no need to do that. But what he started saying is, ‘I could tell you what it is, I [inaudible]… John Hammer and they want my blood for David Wray’s blood. And, ‘I am arrogant.’ [inaudible] What I got from that and the whole conversation was he took no responsibility for anything. He did not say, ‘Well, you know, looking back I could have made another decision.’ He did not say – he was arrogant and he was right, and there was no breaking it. I would have liked to hear him say it; that would have given me a lot more faith. He’s not very flexible either, I don’t think.”
[47:15]
Groat: “On Friday, he and I tried to catch up with each other, and couldn’t. And so on Friday Mitch was in Cary, and he came back. And I had someone check with him and see if I could catch him in the afternoon. I talked to him from four o’clock to six o’clock. And I’ll tell you something that kind of made me know for sure is – we talked about a lot of things – I want you to know, nobody persuaded me and I didn’t persuade anybody else.
“We just talked about a lot of different things. And I said, ‘You know, the way I see it, here are the options.’ He said, ‘Do you have five votes?’ I said, ‘I have no idea; I don’t know.’ And he said, ‘Tell me what I did wrong; tell me what you could prove that I did wrong?’ And I’m not going to get into cutting somebody down unnecessarily; there’s no need to do that. But what he started saying is, ‘I could tell you what it is, I [inaudible]… John Hammer and they want my blood for David Wray’s blood. And, ‘I am arrogant.’ [inaudible] What I got from that and the whole conversation was he took no responsibility for anything. He did not say, ‘Well, you know, looking back I could have made another decision.’ He did not say – he was arrogant and he was right, and there was no breaking it. I would have liked to hear him say it; that would have given me a lot more faith. He’s not very flexible either, I don’t think.”
Wells: “I still don’t know why. We still don’t have a good why.”
Matheny: “Because my why doesn’t mean your why.”
Wells: “Yeah, but your why, but I know the question….”
Matheny: “Goldie, why don’t you and I go to breakfast….”
Wells: “No, I want to ask Sandra – Sandra said, ‘He’s been a lightning rod.’ I want to ask her a question. I want to ask you a question.”
Groat: “Let’s see….”
Wells: “Could I ask you a question? Could I ask a question?”
Groat: “Absolutely.” [cross-talk]
Wells: “You said that he had been a lightning rod. I want to know: If he leaves or if he stays, do you think it’s gonna make any difference? Do you think it’s gonna make any difference?”
District 4 Councilman Mike Barber: “The question’s been asked.”
Groat: “I’ll tell you what: If it doesn’t, shame on council; we all ought to be thrown out.”
Wells: “We ought to get thrown out right now. You don’t need to wait for that. We haven’t done a thing but fuss.”
Groat: “I make the motion that we accept these conditions.”
Wade: “Second”
Johnson: “Alright, all in favor raise your hand. One, two, three, four and five.
“I talked to Mitch today. You know, I see things differently. I listened to every tape. I read every transcript. And I think he was in a hell of a position. He was left in a hell of a position. And I think based on what I’ve read and listened to, he tried to make the decisions he believed were right. I believe that. If I didn’t believe that, I’d have kicked out his behind a long time ago. But I do believe that.
“I know that he needs – he told me today himself, ’cause he knows all of this is going on – he said he needs to take care of his family and to work, and so forth, until July. I’m glad there are five people. I mean, I want the best for him; I don’t want him to be left hanging.”
Groat: “I don’t either.”
Rakestraw: “None of us did.”
Wells: “Another thing, too, that I needed to say. I got to say this: The point the mayor made was, she heard all the tapes; she figured he did the right thing. You all have refused to listen to any of those tapes.”
Rakestraw: “That’s why I went to the trial [of Greensboro police Detective Scott Sanders].”
Wells: “You said, too, this is the first trial you’d ever been to? How can you evaluate? You got to bring in plenty of information.”
[56:56]
City Manager Mitchell Johnson: “I don’t really have any prepared words, but I know this has been difficult for council and I know there’s a lot of issues on all sides of this discussion, but I want you to know, as far as how I’m going to handle myself outside of this room, it’s going to be professional. I’ve got a few statements that I’ve prepared, just in general terms. I know we’ve got a phalanx of reporters out there that are looking, but the general area that I’m going to talk about is, I’ve always been proud to be a part of this organization in every role I’ve ever had. I’ve appreciated the support I’ve had from the employees and the community, and I will continue to do what I can to support the organization. And when they start to ask about specifics, I will say, ‘I will not make any comments on specific actions tonight. I’ll be glad to continue as the city manager, but this is not the desire of the board and I certainly respect their collective decision.’”
[58:31]
Bellamy-Small: “For the record, I want you to know that I have asked repeatedly for this council to tell me, at least, what the reasons are for your being fired. Now, you know, they’ve refused to do that, and I think it is totally unfair.”
Yvonne Johnson: “It’s important for us to not say why, because….”
Bellamy-Small: “Okay. I just need for you to know that I think this stinks, and I want them to know that I think it stinks. Because I think you have jumped through entirely too many hoops to try to please this council and the previous council. I know the difficult role that you had when you took this job. And granted, probably if it were not for your concern in trying to set things right – and that’s what you said to me, and I think that’s what you said, at least, to the previous council, that you wanted to set things right because there were things that were happening that should not happened as far as the police department was concerned. And I still believe that those of us who were the former council members know more about what happened, when it happened, how it happened.
“And I think you did a good job of trying to guide us through those treacherous waters. And even then – you need to know this; the new council members need to know this – he wasn’t getting clear directions all the time from members of the other council and it was a very difficult thing to figure out when to go, when not to go. There were times when he was told not to talk. There were times when he was told, ‘Why aren’t you talking?’ And then he looked at us: ‘But you told me not to talk.’ And then we told him when to talk. So I don’t think y’all really appreciate what this man has been through. It’s not going to change this outcome, but I’m very disappointed. And I don’t think it’s going to change the behavior of this council, whatever we end up doing with him as manager.”
Wells: “And the thing that has bothered me from the beginning of our term this term is the new members have never tried to catch up. They came in with ideas, never changed them, never would bring in new information to even know what we had heard before. Came on with a mindset, kept the mindset and still got a mindset.
“Remember, the Bible’s right: ‘Whatsoever shall a man soweth, that shall he also reap.’”
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